Thank you so much for this. I’m with you on the edge of the playground - and at family functions!😂
I think I was probably also THAT parent at teacher-parent meetings. I know from experience that often parents who are also teachers can be challenging. I never wanted to be one of “those” teacher/parents but I must admit I couldn’t help but ask the “hard” questions about learning. I needed to know my treasures were getting a strong educational foundation in their early years and then when my children were at the pointy end of their schooling - when they HAD to be able to demonstrate sound knowledge (declarative, procedural and conditional) as this determined their uni options, it seemed equally as important to question the what, how and why.
Anyway, You sound like an absolutely equally passionate kindred spirit. Thanks again for writing and sharing.
Hey thanks, Deb. We need more parents like you! FWIW, I'm a bit worried about what happens when I start opening my sons' backpacks and finding mindless worksheets (I love a good worksheet, but most worksheets are dumb.) I think I'll have to choose my battles. Accept that they're not learning cursive, maybe, but absolutely insist he does nothing on a Chromebook in first grade. Who knows. Maybe the next time you talk to me I'll be living on a Montana compound doing homeschool with my kids and making my own butter.
I had exactly this conversation with a pair of Brooklyn friends, and I was mystified. They were asking me for advice on finding a school for their son. I was talking about finding a school with good foundational support for early literacy and math skills. Them: “Well, the school doesn’t test.” Said with the same sense of moral authority as if they had just told me they compost or eat locally-sourced only or divest all investments in fossil fuels. I was shocked, to say the least. One mom went to an elite DC private school and an elite college. The other went to a high-flying public high school. Yet their definition of good school was the social justice messaging and the lack of tests. It was more than a little jarring. The conversation had very “Colin the Chicken” Portlandia vibes.
While I was surprised, I also realize that the real culprit is twofold:
- We don’t explain to parents what good academics look like. Heck, we have a Science of Learning movement in the US to explain it better to teachers. So, what questions would parents ask to gauge quality, other than “Tell me your assessment scores”?
- Parents trust local schools. We see this in surveys, over and over… even if you give low ratings to “American education,” you still trust your local schools. So, if your local school tells you that they are choosing not to test because testing equals bad teach-to-the-test instruction and anxiety for children, and if they say it with the same air of superiority as “Your chicken was ethically raised, and his name was Colin,” we should expect parents to think that assessment-free is the new cruelty-free. Because the school told them so.
I think the answer must be what you are doing – explaining the value of assessment – but also, explaining to parents what good academics look like, in a way they can grasp it, so we create “smart demand” for quality schools.
Sorry for late reply but have been thinking about this provocative piece all week.
One thought is how much teachers at these “good” “progressive” schools are often drinking the Kool-Aid themselves. A couple anecdotes come to mind:
1) About five years ago, I was working at one of these schools myself. Most of the teachers on my team saw standardized tests as mindless drills and below them. Later though we did an inventory and found that the state standardized tests were consistently asking more rigorous and more nuanced higher-order questions than the teachers were using in their own activities and assessments.
2) At around the same time, a friend of mine got a leadership role at one of these schools. After her first major walkthrough of classrooms, she had significant concerns about a lot of the teaching, but when she went back through previous years’ teacher evals, she found that all the teachers had been receiving perfect marks—often for decades. And when she brought her concerns to these teachers, they were dismissive of the idea that their methods were anything but flawless.
Anyway, I am big fans of you two and would love to connect with either of you more at some point. I have visited many of these “good schools”—both public and private—over recent years and have done a lot of writing and reflecting about the sometimes troubling reality on the ground.
Hi Henry. Always good to hear from you and to hear your perspective. It reminds me of a quote I've come to appreciate: "If you want to help someone, tell them the truth. If you want to help yourself, tell them what they want to hear." It can be extremely difficult, as a school leader, to create a warm, supportive and joyful school culture while also maintaining high expectations. (Though the same is true as a teacher!) There is something specific about getting feedback as a TEACHER that feels so personal. So I get why those teachers chafed at your friend's criticism. But at the end of the day, the best teachers/admin/staff are the ones who put their emotions to the side when the going gets stuff and keeps the lode star of the students' needs centered in their view. The others just count down the days until summer. :)
Hi Henry! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and this great essay. Teaching and learning is the greatest social justice, in my eyes. Always feel free to reach out--holly@hollykorbey.com.
I'm not surprised at Patrick's observations. We live in a world of academic conformity. Much, if not most, of educational philosophy comes down to eager following of the latest trends. Our Ivy league schools are being legitimately challenged concerning both their academics and their philosophy. Political parties are no longer about ideas, but about conforming.
Are the top grossing movies the best movies? Are the best selling books the best books? Our standards are not rational. Most people find greater comfort within the herd than within their own imaginations. Many seek a sense of identity by identifying with a group. Any individualistic thoughts that run contrary to common beliefs are excised from within.
Multiple psychological studies confirm that many people will alter their behavior and their beliefs in order to conform to senseless behavior by a control group. So, parents talking in the school yard become avid supporters of schools with inferior academics, while eschewing the schools that perform well. It seems, as Patrick has discussed, that schools that stress the comfort of conformity are well received, while those that stress individual achievement are not. No, I am not surprised.
Thank you so much for this. I’m with you on the edge of the playground - and at family functions!😂
I think I was probably also THAT parent at teacher-parent meetings. I know from experience that often parents who are also teachers can be challenging. I never wanted to be one of “those” teacher/parents but I must admit I couldn’t help but ask the “hard” questions about learning. I needed to know my treasures were getting a strong educational foundation in their early years and then when my children were at the pointy end of their schooling - when they HAD to be able to demonstrate sound knowledge (declarative, procedural and conditional) as this determined their uni options, it seemed equally as important to question the what, how and why.
Anyway, You sound like an absolutely equally passionate kindred spirit. Thanks again for writing and sharing.
Hey thanks, Deb. We need more parents like you! FWIW, I'm a bit worried about what happens when I start opening my sons' backpacks and finding mindless worksheets (I love a good worksheet, but most worksheets are dumb.) I think I'll have to choose my battles. Accept that they're not learning cursive, maybe, but absolutely insist he does nothing on a Chromebook in first grade. Who knows. Maybe the next time you talk to me I'll be living on a Montana compound doing homeschool with my kids and making my own butter.
I had exactly this conversation with a pair of Brooklyn friends, and I was mystified. They were asking me for advice on finding a school for their son. I was talking about finding a school with good foundational support for early literacy and math skills. Them: “Well, the school doesn’t test.” Said with the same sense of moral authority as if they had just told me they compost or eat locally-sourced only or divest all investments in fossil fuels. I was shocked, to say the least. One mom went to an elite DC private school and an elite college. The other went to a high-flying public high school. Yet their definition of good school was the social justice messaging and the lack of tests. It was more than a little jarring. The conversation had very “Colin the Chicken” Portlandia vibes.
While I was surprised, I also realize that the real culprit is twofold:
- We don’t explain to parents what good academics look like. Heck, we have a Science of Learning movement in the US to explain it better to teachers. So, what questions would parents ask to gauge quality, other than “Tell me your assessment scores”?
- Parents trust local schools. We see this in surveys, over and over… even if you give low ratings to “American education,” you still trust your local schools. So, if your local school tells you that they are choosing not to test because testing equals bad teach-to-the-test instruction and anxiety for children, and if they say it with the same air of superiority as “Your chicken was ethically raised, and his name was Colin,” we should expect parents to think that assessment-free is the new cruelty-free. Because the school told them so.
I think the answer must be what you are doing – explaining the value of assessment – but also, explaining to parents what good academics look like, in a way they can grasp it, so we create “smart demand” for quality schools.
Sorry for late reply but have been thinking about this provocative piece all week.
One thought is how much teachers at these “good” “progressive” schools are often drinking the Kool-Aid themselves. A couple anecdotes come to mind:
1) About five years ago, I was working at one of these schools myself. Most of the teachers on my team saw standardized tests as mindless drills and below them. Later though we did an inventory and found that the state standardized tests were consistently asking more rigorous and more nuanced higher-order questions than the teachers were using in their own activities and assessments.
2) At around the same time, a friend of mine got a leadership role at one of these schools. After her first major walkthrough of classrooms, she had significant concerns about a lot of the teaching, but when she went back through previous years’ teacher evals, she found that all the teachers had been receiving perfect marks—often for decades. And when she brought her concerns to these teachers, they were dismissive of the idea that their methods were anything but flawless.
Pat, you may have already seen this one already, but I wrote a somewhat adjacent piece a few years ago for ASCD about who counts as a “progressive” educator. https://www.ascd.org/el/articles/who-counts-as-a-social-justice-educator
Anyway, I am big fans of you two and would love to connect with either of you more at some point. I have visited many of these “good schools”—both public and private—over recent years and have done a lot of writing and reflecting about the sometimes troubling reality on the ground.
Hi Henry. Always good to hear from you and to hear your perspective. It reminds me of a quote I've come to appreciate: "If you want to help someone, tell them the truth. If you want to help yourself, tell them what they want to hear." It can be extremely difficult, as a school leader, to create a warm, supportive and joyful school culture while also maintaining high expectations. (Though the same is true as a teacher!) There is something specific about getting feedback as a TEACHER that feels so personal. So I get why those teachers chafed at your friend's criticism. But at the end of the day, the best teachers/admin/staff are the ones who put their emotions to the side when the going gets stuff and keeps the lode star of the students' needs centered in their view. The others just count down the days until summer. :)
Hi Henry! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and this great essay. Teaching and learning is the greatest social justice, in my eyes. Always feel free to reach out--holly@hollykorbey.com.
I'm not surprised at Patrick's observations. We live in a world of academic conformity. Much, if not most, of educational philosophy comes down to eager following of the latest trends. Our Ivy league schools are being legitimately challenged concerning both their academics and their philosophy. Political parties are no longer about ideas, but about conforming.
Are the top grossing movies the best movies? Are the best selling books the best books? Our standards are not rational. Most people find greater comfort within the herd than within their own imaginations. Many seek a sense of identity by identifying with a group. Any individualistic thoughts that run contrary to common beliefs are excised from within.
Multiple psychological studies confirm that many people will alter their behavior and their beliefs in order to conform to senseless behavior by a control group. So, parents talking in the school yard become avid supporters of schools with inferior academics, while eschewing the schools that perform well. It seems, as Patrick has discussed, that schools that stress the comfort of conformity are well received, while those that stress individual achievement are not. No, I am not surprised.